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Great post! So many books. Not enough time. Keep up the goddamn outstanding work, dudes. Even with some brilliant minds working together I am at a public institution and ergo work with a lot of awesome students , it remains hard to combat the forceful power of the distortions and romanticizations made all too common by all-too-human desires for instant gratification and self-justification dolled up as infotainment, which then becomes the basis of the political error and apathy that we continue to suffer.

Your painstaking review—with sources! Thanks for doing the legwork and serving both your country and the fourth estate. You have to wonder, if the number of enemy combatants was indeed on the low end , is it possible that the SEAL s killed no more than a handful, or none at all? But it seems the bulk of SOF training is represented by things not related to combat firefighting , i. Everyone assumes that SOF are better combatants than regular soldiers nevermind insurgents, as this and every other movie shows.

I mean, is there a regular way of firing a rifle and an elite way of firing a rifle? Regular cover fire and elite cover fire? Regular use of cover and elite use of cover? UUU - You bring up an interesting point about the number of casualties. In a perfect world, the military would only record bodies on the ground after a battle. This is essentially the truest number of enemy killed. Some posters here ask why make distinctions between Mr.

Of course, this article goes further and relates Lone Survivor to reality as well. The simple answer is truth and accuracy in the public domain. To that end, the value of this article is priceless. I also know something about firefights—first-hand. My opinion is that Mr. My book review on Amazon offers much more detail. It remains for Mr. Luttrell to adequately explain how he was able to avoid being KIA. So 75 causality were the norm.

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You may have a point on the Op name, and connections to this or that group. No way in hell the figure of 35 is an exaggeration. A Staff Sergeant would never refer to himself as a Sergeant. That is Army talk…. Personal experience has proven this form is reliable especially in mountains and yes even in thunderstorms.

I have tremendous respect for these men and understand fully the importance of leaving embarassing operational details such as these out. I think this is a very interesting topic and an especially interesting forum to discuss these topics. The fact that they inserted less than a mile from there SR I guess could be good or bad considering less travel equals less potential exposure to the locals.

I remember something about one dude sitting in a tree stump. Did only one of them have a radio? You are right on the money. Your points are well made. In fact, his team is guilty of gross negligence and incompetence. They did not understand their enemy, and worse, they did not respect their enemy.

I saw Lone Survivor in the theater last night, and left with nagging suspicions that Hollywood was exaggerating too much in a production that is essentially billed as a tactical re-enactment. I guess my doubts regarding the accuracy of the film began with the opening sequence. But several other scenes in the movie seemed to be more about myth creation than about a factual retelling of the actual events.

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I want to honor our fighting men and women as much as anyone, having lost a childhood friend in the Persian Gulf. I think that requires a closer adherence to the truth of actual events than this movie realizes. Thanks for being here, OV. I nearly ignored your listing on Google because of your name. Just discovered this site. Thanks for doing the legwork on this Michael and Eric. Hollywood movies and not the actual story. I stopped at around page 5 due to the numerous misspellings and sometimes poor writing. It has previously been established that the book was ghostwritten after a series of interviews with Marcus Luttrell.

Robinson was more than a ghostwriter, he was THE writer, and a poor one at that. On page it says when they arrived in Afghanistan they were given a lecture on what was happening on the northwest border, which divides Afghanistan and Pakistan. A quick look at the map in the front of the book would have told Robinson it was the Afghan northeast border with Pakistan. Luttrell would never have made that error and he certainly would have caught it had he read it.

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Luttrell began his SEAL training in group And yet, throughout the entire book, written in the first person, he is in group I do believe Luttrell wrote the Acknowledgments at the end of the book, and the reason I say that is he refers to his group as being Had Luttrell bothered to read the finished product he would have spotted the error in a N.

It gets worse. On page it states the M4 machine gun caliber is That means it would have a barrel I. The correct caliber is. On the same page it says the AK 47 is. Luttrell would know this. I could go on and on. The point is however, despite not thoroughly looking over the final draft, if it all, I do not believe anyone should let this tarnish the importance of the sacrifices made by these men. He probably realized at some point after receiving feedback on the book that such aforementioned references and more were askew from what was reality.

As a SEAL , it was always first nature to protect and defend his brothers. It seems as though this nature led to responses in interviews that were seemingly contradictory. Let us also consider that any soldier who has been in a combat situation has the potential to experience segmented alterations of reality. Naval reports state they were attacked from 3 sides.

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Suppose that in unfamiliar terrain, being flanked on both sides, outnumbered, COMS malfunctions, injured brothers, rain of gunfire, that at times when he reflects on the situation, to him it seems like or more enemies. Careers have been made in Psychology about the effects war has on soldiers. In high stress combat situations, it is often found that later recollection of an event does deviate somewhat from the AAR. The Naval investigation found 35 enemy bodies. Unless corpses multiply in a magical Afghanistan I am unaware of, does not fit the bill.

Even the Navy has to adjust their own numbers at one point during the recon, which is why there are conflicting reports of the size of the enemy force reported by the Navy. This is attributed to simple math and common sense upon recon. They were or at least in contact with someone who was.

If there was a vote, so what? All points agree that in the end, Murphy made the call in respect of the ROE. Intelligence pins hostile forces in your AO. Whether or not there was a vote, a discussion, whatever. They obeyed protocols by Murphey making the final decision- the only one that mattered and also followed ROE because they did not receive orders to the contrary. Neither of which you can do much about once the brown stuff hits the whirly thing. One of three probabilities could have happened here: 1.

Also, even if it was, the terrain they were dropped in and that of their FOB was vastly different, which could have interfered or led to probability 2: once enemy pursuit began, COMS equipment could have been damaged and discarded, or at least thought to have been damaged and discarded, seeing as how there is no debate that COMS became difficult shortly after Heineken was reached and they missed 3 windows.

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Each MOS carries with it a different function and responsibility. There are some missions in which your orders are to limit supplies to allow quicker movement, stealth, whatever the reason. No matter what happened, no one should be assuming decreased competence of this SEAL team. I trusted better accuracy would be reported, which is why I spent so much time being interviewed by the writer. Consider that when he wakes up in a cold sweat at night, all he sees are his wounded, dying brothers and that the enemy seems never ending; that at certain points his own mind is also his enemy.

That he was in a hell that most of us will never experience and probably still is during quiet moments in which he still may not have fully had time to wrap his head around and reflect on what actually was and what actually is. That maybe even at the time of his AAR , he was conflicted about what to write, valuing honoring fallen brothers over his own need for truth, then maybe having a need to get it all out once he made sure they received their medals and the world knew of their honor. Honestly, would you want your brothers honored for their sacrifice or only recognized for a debate against ROE that in the end did not hold weight and does nothing to change what happened?

No matter what you believe, or whom you believe to be credible, please do not question for even the briefest of moments what effort these men put forth, what brave souls they were, the sacrifice they made, and the honor they deserve. Let him see them in the light that allows them all to live on for him, and allows him to live with himself day by day, not succumbing to survivors grief. I watched a Vietnam veteran attempt to hang himself over it 40 years after watching his brothers die. — MongoDB Manual

His wife left, took his children, and 6 months later he attempted suicide again. He was revived and now spends his life confined to a motorized wheelchair, a shell of his former self. His father knows him as a man of honor, thus believing he would never even question ROE. I believe he was, no matter what he questioned, because in the end he made the call that took honor and selflessness, the one he knew was his charge to make, but would also probably cost his life.

Please provide a citation or reference. Here is mine: Lt.

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Could they not count the dead bodies? Are we supposed to take seriously your claim that Luttrell did not read the final manuscript, the single most important piece of writing of his life? He has been changing his story for years to include even more fantastical events than were in his book. Additionally, he publicly stands by the nonsense actually published in his book. What may be especially troubling to him during his quiet moments are the precise details of how he managed to survive in a virtually worst-case set of tactical circumstances. Anyone with military experience would have picked up on those at first glance.

But you are right, it is my assumption out of disbelief with his extensive experience that he could have read the whole thing and let that go…. Michael, I will work to find the source I located that in. He even lists some of the sources that say so as references. I also read that the SOA was finalized after the MOH , after further intel, which is why there is a deviation in the numbers.

I will dig up a link to that as well. I am currently on a cell phone but they are on the history on my computer at home. Having gotten into the Lone Survivor story recently I must say that I appreciate the efforts that your site and others are making to clarify the story. I do think there is an endless cyclical and mind numbing aspect in the quest to define accurately not only what happened during an event but the justification of said actions into columns of right and wrong which then can become building blocks in the wall of irrefutable truth.

Throw in the degrading nature of time coupled with the crucible of reflection and true memories begin to take shape. Keep up the well intended and valuable work. He was the one who brought it out to God and the world. First off most of the mistakes in the movie are easily noticed by anyone whose read Lone Survivor or any other book on the subject.

While personally I believe these changes were unnecessary, I expected at least a little bit of dramatic license to be taken with the film. Most of this controversy stems from the book Victory Point , which states that Shah had fighters. In conclusion, looking back at all the information, is it more logical that once Shah learned of the SEAL s presence near his base, he took men, magically guessed the route they would travel on, and managed to ambush them and overrun them with only 10 men or that he took most of his man small army, organised search parties, found them, and overran them.

PS-The figure is based on the Victory Point figure after the ambush. I believe the movie portrays the firefight most accurately, as Lutrell was directly involved in making it and he had 8 years to think about exactly what happened up on that mountain. I agree that the number is clearly too large, but most of the criticism on Lone Survivor is pretty easily disproved by just looking at the reports of people on the ground.

Meh — Well put, and thanks for the respectful comments. We included counts that we consider accurate as high as 20 or I have heard before that if the SEAL s tied the goatherders in place, they were worried they would die of starvation or dehydration and the Americans would be blamed. This however, is unlikely because the SEAL s were in visual distance of the village which means they were very close.

I have also heard that the SEAL s were afraid if they tied them up in place, the stationary goats also would have given away their position, making the point moot. I have no idea if the SEAL s were required to use them at the time, but you rarely see anyone who is not a redshirt wearing a helmet in a movie. The number was 10 marines in the movie. It was onkly 20 in the trailer because trailers skip and throw parts of a movie together DUH. Let me ask you a question. Why is it that we as American citizens feel the right to pick apart every single detail of a military operation?

If you want to discuss what is right or wrong or who should be held responsible for what, go into politics. Point your fingers at politicians. As far as im concerned if you have not served or are not in politics, your lifestyle is much too selfish to demand facts of what our U. S military does. Sit back, enjoy your simple lives and stop complaining about facts. He can change whatever he wants, not every fact has to be accurate and here is why.

Liberal media are the ones who blows things out of proportion and decides what to report and what not to report. They are great at their job but they are spineless.


ALL media period is spineless. The fundamental problem with Mr. Laws of physics, capabilities of the human body, and basic military principles are thrown out the window, if we are to accept Mr. You wrote that whole comment knowing this post was written by a combat veteran who served in the valley where Operation Redwings took place, right?

James — And I just watched a clip from the film. I could go on but that list conveys the idea. That statement is not a fact. It is an opinion. The only thing factual about it that you have it and you stated it here for all to see. That you further expanded upon that opinion is a fact too. The reason why us lowly citizens desire to know, in fact sometimes demand to know what is going on is that 1.

The Constitution makes us civilians master of the the military through our civilian elected representatives. You work for us. And nowadays, you volunteer to work for us so you know what you are getting into. In order for us to continue to enjoy our simple lives we will know the facts whether that complicates the lives of the military or not. The Founders thought all this very important in order to preclude the military tyrannizing the civilians. Us knowing the facts helps prevent that. Hi all, Talk about eating your own. I understand the search for truth but be careful, sometimes you might find it.

I have read Lone Survivor and have seen the film. The truth I think is somewhere in between the books. I feel the most important thing about the story is the families of the fallen, and some of the posting here does a real disservice to the memories of their loved ones. Sometimes the truth is not that important as you might think. Ask yourself, How did the truth work out for the Tillmans?

In regards to Murphy asking for a vote and some posters feeling its unbelievable. I know that when I moved into a smaller elite unit I did lead differently than when I had a bunch of rookies. So I can understand Murphy asking for input. For that he should be commended. I would much rather have Luttrell looking out for my family than some of these posters. That time spent painting will give my battered self-esteem time to recover I hope. The thing being discussed is a military operation undertaken in the name of the United States. It should be discussed and evaluated with that in mind.

As such the truth of the matter should not be withheld because to do so would take away from the ability of the citizens of the United States to judge whether things as they occurred were of benefit to us and our country. The truth is more important that any of us can know. As a police officer, your job is finding the truth as best you can. That is what the people expect and pay you for. The truth did indeed work out very badly for the Tillmans.

I would just like to thank you guys for your research into this whole account. We all know as military guys we can pick apart a movie from uniforms to procedures and equipment used in the making there of. To me this movie falls apart when these actors are falling off cliffs with bone crushing, neck breaking intensity and my friends comments throughout the movie is why I took interest in the facts. We also work where Lt. Most of the crew that works there are veterans from Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and every conflict in between, from served a few years to active duty retired me and take great interest in these matters.

The falsehoods portrayed from differences between book, script and movie has bothered me and I think the differences take away from the deaths to all involved and makes me wonder if it was all worth these guys lives just as some in the media have thought,shit happens and they are gone! I think every Vet saw that coming and the same will happen in Afghanistan just as soon. I am not passing judgement on the bravery of anyone involved just the accuracy of the movie itself and I am disappointed. I thank you guys for you diligence and research, please keep it up.

Eric C You got info wrong in your own comment here, so that means judging you by what you are using to judge the book, you have been completely discredited. Remember, he got the name wrong? It was such a huge deal to you, and yet you did the same in the below quote. I understand that one of the authors served, and served in a similar area, albeit a few years alter and has some credibility and knowledge of the area in Afghanistan. However, I find it personally in bad taste to parse every detail from someone who has served and paid at a tremendous cost.

As someone who personally continues to serve in the military and who has been in combat myself, details and numbers are not easily remembered the same over time after a traumatic experience, such as Mr. Additionally, a repeated topic is the number of fighters attacking the seals and the authors claim it is hard to believe a large force attacking the Seals, given the history of the region.

The Battle of Wanat had a platoon sized outpost nearly overrun after a large attack. I believe one of the authors served in this same unit. Additionally, the battle of Kamdesh also had a large scale attack in which an outpost was overrun. I understand and respect having a differing political or policy view than Mr. I only know from experience, in knowing a young man and his family from Philadelphia. He was a very intelligent young man and before his death, clearly wished he was just a regular guy and conveyed that to friends.

Joe — First, please read some of other posts to find out why we find this topic so important. Eric C, I have read the other posts on the topic and understand why you think it is important. If ROE and other issues are what is important, sure I got it. But from some of your comments and the content the motivation appears to be more of a political difference and that looks hypocritical.

Joe — Yeah, Greg Mortenson. Actually, I hold liberals to a higher standard, since the factual accuracy of their memoirs will matters to the cohesiveness of the entire argument. I think we wrote three or four articles on Greg Mortenson. Lies in a left-leaning memoir are just as bad a lies in a right-wing memoir. If someone knows of a left leaning war memoirist, please let me know. Ok, you are fair on Mortenson and that is good to hear. Mortenson-while its been a few years since I read 3 cups of tea, I found him to be a pacifist, but his political commentary is nothing close to the bluntness of Luttrell.

Also, you said you wrote 3 articles on him, yet I counted 27 on Luttrell. That number indicates both an obsessiveness with the topic of Luttrell and also a large disparity on going after a conservative figure vs liberal. I guess my point is that if you want to offer liberal viewpoints on foreign policy there are many mediums to so. I would have wrote a few posts and let it drop. I agree with you. It perfectly shows that both sides of the political spectrum arm-chair quarterback national security issues.

And should. Usually one would have military experience, Phd, etc. A clarification for you. Instead, Luttrell uses a radio air-dropped by the military. I just read the book so I know it says the radio that Luttrell used was the one he had with him the whole time. Some seem to consider it treason to question this BS book and the BS movie. The guy that killed your buds and you had him in the crosshairs What better way to honor them than complete the mission? How soon we forget the Pat Tilman cluster F. And the lies and cover up that still exists to this day.

All this research to say what did and did not happen. Either you believe Marcus or not, I believe him. Nut up and ask Marcus. The NS were in a run and shoot for 2. Initial they tried to break the ambush by attacking the center mass but the enemy kept reinforcing that position and not being able to hold their left flank which is were the majority of the small arms, RPG and mortars were coming in, all NS were right hand shooters, so they pushed right until they could no longer move either way.

Thus the reason to jump, they were also being over run by shear firepower, each of them engaging multiple targets. Definition of being over run is the other 75 to assholes shooting at you that you can not see. Those 4 men on that mountain are heroes, the book and movie is about teamwork, commitment, brotherhood, courage, honor and sacrifice. The implication is he is tougher than nails and would destroy anyone that dare question him.

And to quote some BS that a high ranking military official may have told the family of a fallen soldier is ridiculous. Same with berg, years ago. This post does the latter. Eric, Marcus has been questions by many more people that are much more adequate with interrogation than you are. If you want to be thorough with your research then reach out and interview Rear Admiral Joseph Maguire. It is a fact that the enemy does pick up their dead when they can. However it is not beyond reason to be skeptical. Turned out to be BS. Supporters of this story seem to think the public should just believe despite of inaccuracies in the story.

Could you please send my your sources indicating it is a fact? Could you also clarify how many bodies you believe the enemy force carried away, how many were left on the ground, how far they carried away the bodies and the total size of the enemy force? I would guess that the powers to be in Hollywood made a lot of changes based on their perception as to what the audience wants to see.

And last, having been in the military for over 20 years, I can tell you there are a lot of hazing being done at some of these highly specialized schools where its necessary to endure the machismo to get into the proper mind set. If they can take the BS of the school staff, they can take combat. Thank you for taking the time to present this examination. I watched the film recently and posted an update on Small Wars Journal, where a German member pointed me to this. He answered that he could not have made Carlos without the benefit of the time between the events depicted and the production.

I also wrote a response to the BS that makes up Bergs movie. The precise era of the Golden Age is disputed, though most agree that it was born with the launch of Superman in Grand Comics Database. Retrieved February 16, Portland, Oregon: Collectors Press. Alternative Comics: An Emerging Literature 1st ed. Jackson, Mississippi: University Press of Mississippi. Wizard Marvel Comics. Retrieved March 21, Dallas, Texas: Taylor Publishing Company. Smith, Matthew January 29, January 24, Retrieved November 16, New York: Abrams Books. Entertainment Weekly. Time Inc. Retrieved March 29, Archived from the original on 21 November Retrieved 2 February Boulder, Colorado: University Press of Colorado.

New York: Alpha Books. Iola, Wisconsin: Krause Publications. Cincinnati, Ohio: Routledge. Comic Book Legal Defense Fund. Archived from the original on 27 March Retrieved 27 March Classics and Comics. New York: Oxford University Press. New York: DK Publishing. Retrieved February 3, Marietta, Georgia: Top Shelf Productions. Iola, Wisconsin : Krause Publications.

The Silver Age started with Showcase 4, the Flash's first appearance. DC's Showcase No. Comic Book Resources. July 2, Archived from the original on January 12, Retrieved March 26, Golden Age of Comic Books. Jones V-Man Wonder Man. Glossary of comics terminology.