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Julia H. Even if the memory charms are different in the case of Hermione's parents and in the case of the DE's, modifying the mind by planting new memories into it as well as wiping out the old ones sounds more difficult than simply wiping out existing memories, without planting new ones. BTW, it would have been a perfect solution if Hermione performed the same kind of memory charm on the DE's as the one she had already practised on her parents - of course, we can assume that it would have taken too much time.

Solitaire We don't know how much of their minds Hermione cleared, but we know that Voldemort managed to "restore" the wiped out memories of Bertha Jorkins, although it caused her terrible pains. Michael Franz - May 30, am of I am willing to give Hermione the benefit of the doubt and believe that she knew her parents' abilities to cope with her death and danger better than I do. It doesn't matter.

The death of one's child is a horrible thing, but for someone to make you forget that child ever existed — even if it is the child herself — is unconscionable beyond words. And, don't forget, "Monica and Wendell Wilkins" don't even know that Mr.


Granger ever existed either. If Hermione died without lifting the charm, her parents would be as dead as surely as if she'd AK'd them. Solitaire - May 30, am of I still think she did her best to protect them. Solitaire - May 30, pm of Michael, I think the reason I empathize with Hermione in this probably stems from a situation I observed in my past. Over a period of years, I watched a local family disintegrate over the untimely death of a child, and I doubt any of them will ever be the same.

You may not think that is sufficient reason for Hermione's actions, but I can certainly understand how she might have arrived at that decision. I'm not addressing the right or wrong of her actions. I'm only saying that her decision was motivated from love. Hermione acted out of a desire to spare her parents what she felt would be unnecessary grief and suffering, just as parents sometimes do for their children. Michael Franz - May 30, pm of Grindelwald wanted to control Muggles for his own benefit and "the greater good," whatever that was.

Perhaps I was too harsh in comparing Hermione to Grindelwald. I doubt Grindelwald actually believed his own rhetoric; he just hated Muggles and wanted an excuse to enslave them. Dumbledore, on the other hand, genuinely believed Grindelwald's words and wrote a letter to him about how wizards had the right to rule, but also had an obligation to rule well.

Hermione is like Dumbledore, not Grindelwald. Dumbledore, too, wanted to spare Harry pain, but by holding back vital information, he indirectly caused the death of Sirius. Hermione is the kind of person about whom you'd say, "Bless her heart, she means well" — but we all know that's not exactly a compliment.

I agree that it's understandable why Hermione would do this. I could even forgive her for doing it though whether or not her parents would, I cannot say. But what I won't do is say she did the right thing. As you pointed out in an earlier post, the muggle bias is really throughout the Wizarding World, not just among the Bad Guys.

Bias against muggleborns makes no sense of course and we get to see that Hermione and Lily, both muggleborn, are highly talented and powerful. But even those in the Wizarding World that are opposed to bias against muggleborns are quite biased against muggles. It's kind of like the parental attitudes that many industrial nations have for people of developing nations, or especially nations that are hardly developed at all. You know, that kind of "Ah, we have so much sympathy for their plight, but they haven't got a clue what's good for them.

We people of greater knowledge, wealth, and understanding have to make their decisions for them. Hermione's attitude toward her parents is kind of the same. I had not really thought about contrasting it with Harry's methods of convincing the Dursleys, but you're quite right. Harry argues and works to be convincing never apparently even considering putting any sorts of coercive spells on the Dursleys to force them into safety. I agree that it was Hermione's concern for her parents that motivated her, but you have to wonder when regardless what kind of mistakes JKR made about Hermione and memory charms, Hermione couldn't have been particularly experienced with them and yet she went ahead and worked memory charms on her parents, without apparently asking anyone's help to make sure it was done correctly.

I've seen this whole thing of memory loss discussed in depth not just in the HP world. Many people feel that without their previous memories they simply would not the same person. It would be as though the real self would be dead and a new self taking their place. The idea of losing one's memories is like death to many people. And the fictional idea of taking someone's memories is often viewed as an extreme violation of privacy. Because JKR seems to have probably made a mistake about Hermione and memory charms, I tend to think that JKR had Hermione alter her parents memories without really giving this plot device a great deal of thought.

After all, if JKR had thought it out in depth Hermione changing her parent's memories , would she have made such a mistake as to have Hermione say she'd never done any memory charms in the past? I think JKR just wanted a very quick device to remove the Grangers from harms way, for which JKR wouldn't have to spend much page time on how it was accomplished. It's just one more of those things about DH that I feel made not only a plot hole with Hermione's later comments, but also gave us another random ethical problem that need not have existed. Madam Pince - May 30, pm of I was just about to chime in as well that the comparison might be better made to Dumbledore rather than to Grindelwald, but I see other brighter minds got there first.

Soli and Michael Franz make a good point that Grindelwald was probably just blowing smoke with what he said in order to cover up a personal agenda, while DD evidently naively believed it. One other point about what Hermione did -- by creating Wendell and Monica Wilkins who have no knowledge of Mr.

Granger she not only "saved" them from knowledge of her own existence, but also of any other relatives or friends they might have. No man is an island, after all. What if Hermione's grandparents were still living? Aunts, uncles, cousins? What about them? Here those people are left thinking an entire family that they love has simply disappeared. Not too nice for them. Yes, she may've saved their lives, and yes, she acted out of the goodness of her heart with all best intentions.

But there was lots wrong with the idea, unfortunately. JKR often makes what seem like comparisons to "real life" situations although to my knowledge she never specifically acknowledges this ex: Nurmengard : Nuremgrad. I wonder if the Hermione-parental-memory-wipe isn't meant to parallel something like the hiding of war refugees so that they could be sent abroad, which saved lives but separated families and caused untold anguish?

Or to point out the arrogance of industrially-developed countries, as wynnleaf mentions? Solitaire - May 30, pm of ex: Nurmengard : Nuremgrad. Did you mean Nuremberg, site of the Nazi war crimes trials? As to Hermione's extended family If both of her parents were only children whose parents had already died, there would be no extended family to grieve for them. Given Hermione's attention to detail, I believe that this was probably the case. Leaving "loose ends" around in the form of grandparents, aunts and uncles, and cousins would not have been wise, and she makes no mention of modifying anyone else's memories.

Solitaire It's more likely JKR's inattention at this point. If Hermione were actually being attentive to detail in this case, I hardly think she'd completely forget she'd ever done memory spells. Sorry, I realize some readers can't recall if you're one, Solitaire like to work to make all of canon somehow fit together, even if some of it is possibly written in error.

If that's your intention, that's fine. I don't do that. If it's highly likely an authorial error, I don't try to make it fit. Thom Matheson - May 30, pm of To switch gears a bit, While rereading POA for the thread, I was reminded again of something that has bothered me for some time now. Hermione gets the time turner after the school and McGonnagal stepped up. I assume that Dumbledore knew as well.

AS with Harry's broom in SS the other teachers seemed to know all about it. Therefore it would make sense that all of her teachers knew about the "special circumstances" of having the time turner would be known as well. That being said Snape would have known about it also. My conumdrum is why did Snape not remember that she had the time turner when he was accusing Harry of releasing Sirius? That to me should have been a big tip off for him. Can anyone help me out here? I hope that I explained that well enough for you all.

That's what I get for posting when I'm tired. I find it impossible to believe that there was absolutely not one other soul in Muggle-land that would miss Mr. Whether Hermione paid attention to detail or not -- clearly her parents were not hermits who lived in a cabin in the deepest woods with no human contact. But they were dentists -- surely they had colleagues, neighbors, and friends at the very least.

That's just what makes Hermione's actions problematic -- you can't really do a "surgical strike" with something like this, I don't think. I think it more likely that it was as wynnleaf said -- just a quick and sloppy plot device by JKR that wasn't well-thought-through and thus qualifies as an error. Of course, JKR usually has a very good answer for things like this when she's "called" on them -- I'm sure she'd reply with something similar to "they died in unremarkable circumstances and they don't enter into the story at all" like she did when asked about Harry's grandparents.

And perhaps that's enough -- it doesn't affect our story, so why worry about it? But it does come up and become interesting if we're analyzing characters' actions. Good catch, Thom, about the time-turner thing. I think you've caught another error They could have been used against Hermione which may have stopped her from helping Harry.

Wynnleaf, making canon all fit together is part of the fun. Do some reading of Sherlock Holmes fans and see how they reconcile the placement of Watson's war wound. Three different places are mentioned in canon. Thom I've read several posts by Wynnleaf about this and they have convinced me perfectly. After Madam Pomfrey's assertion that Harry and Hermione had not left the hospital room, Dumbledore said: "Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don' see any point in troubling them further.

It seems at this moment Snape understood not only the time-turner thing but also the fact that Dumbledore knew what had happened and approved of it, moreover that Dumbledore was actually warning him not to pursue this question any longer. Snape may have taken up the topic with Dumbledore later, but he had understood that he was not to talk about it in front of Fudge. He was clearly furious, nevertheless he did what Dumbledore wanted him to do.

I'm not sure about whether Fudge would have known or not, given that it was done through the Ministry. I am now at Julia's post, and I see she has mentioned Snape's reactions. I think you have nailed what happened perfectly, Julia. I do seem to remember, in one of the later books, Fudge trying to discredit Harry by mentioning something about him being in two places at once Steve, I'm with you I enjoy the books and I can usually find some way to reconcile in my mind the things which are "fuzzy.

Thom Matheson - May 31, pm of Julie, thanks for that explanation, and Wynnleaf as well. I can see that clearly as plausible when I reread that passage. Orion - Jun 1, am of Am I the only one who thinks Hermione acted out of love and absolutely correctly? Even if you lose everything in life, all your memories and you stay a different person for the rest of your life, you're infinitely better off than if you're caught by sadistic maniacs and tortured to death.

Sometimes you simply have to be utilitaristic and sit down on the grass beside your moral hippogriff and eat a sandwich and then say, okay, lunch is over, now we're going to be absolutely morally correct again, but that was an emergency! Off topic: Soli, you have heard of Nuremberg! Have you been there? If any forumer comes to Germany, make sure to see Nuremberg, it's lovely!

I lived there for half a year. It's a beautiful medieval city with a large castle and it's great for shopping, too. It was heavily destroyed in the war but thankfully rebuilt after the original plans. Every year I visit it because it hosts a big rock festival on the Zeppelinfeld with headliners like Metallica and Linkin Park and it's always a great holiday. Off topic off! Orion Personally, I disagree.

In my opinion, if my memories were completely gone and I was starting over, from this side of things currently having my memories , I might as well be dead and someone else living in my body. Plus, remember we're not talking about the one and only way to prevent certain death. Hermione did not attempt any other method of protecting her parents, yet the method she picked would, if she had never returned, effectively "killed" the people that they had been.

And the worst part was that she did not appear to have consulted them. When you compare that to Harry's approach to the Dursleys, add the fact that Harry got help from others and that Hermione used a spell she had practically no experience with, and it all seems quite high-handed, risky, and overall arrogant. She cares about her parents, but it seems a selfish caring.

She doesn't care what they think, or their personal rights, only that they are physically alive so she can find them again later, if she happens to make it through and put them back to normal. Orion I have a personal exceedingly strong abhorrence for utilitarianism. Taken to it's logical conclusions, it can lead to horrific reasoning, as in some of Peter Singer's philosophy.

That's a whole other topic with nothing to do with HP, as JKR doesn't seem to be utilitarian, although the "greater good" idea relates to it as it does to a number of other philosophies. Orion, I don't mean that as a statement again you, only against utilitarianism. Solitaire - Jun 1, am of Orion, I was one who felt Hermione did act in the best interests of her parents, knowing what would probably face them if they remained as they were, where they were.

I am not looking at the right or wrong of it but at her motive, which was to spare them pain and suffering. And no, I did not get to visit Nuremberg when I was in Germany. Perhaps next time Rowling: They are two different charms. She has not wiped her parents' memories as she later does to Dolohov and Rowle ; she has bewitched them to make them believe that they are different people.

JKR's answer, more than anything else, convinced me that it was an error. It ought to have been caught in editing and changed to Hermione saying that she never did a a memory wipe. Hermione's attitude towards house elves parallels Dumbledore's attitude toward muggles: well-meaning but arrogant. Hermione explaining to Harry that she'd bewitched her parents and sent them off to Australia gave me chills.

That was harsh! I think JKR meant it to be harsh and extreme. I don't think JKR is implying that she is arrogant and superior. But this attitude is not black-and-white, it's nuanced. Flawed characters are so much more interesting. John Bumbledore - Jun 1, am of Well, I don't have my book, but I remember that Hermione was greaved to discuss how she was protecting her parents.

Did her dialog preclude the possibility that she discussed these actions with her parents first and got their approval? From the reader's viewpoint, Hermione was now an orphan who's parents had in essence died. I believe it was Hermione who suffered the most from the choice. Isn't that a fate worse than death, she knows they live but they now have no knowledge of her.

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They would feel no loss, indeed they may have a new freedom they had not experienced in nearly two decades. From Mr. Wilkins point of view they were traveling to a country they had always wanted to visit and were not encoumbered by a child. Okay, from my viewpoint as a father of four Wouldn't it be a bit like a second honeymoon? Perhaps Hermione did not consider the possibility that if she survived and restored her parent's memory, that she may need to deal with the news of an expected sibling.

I would agree with you Chemyst, Jo's comment seems to be a wave of the hand pay no attention to the woman behind the curtain. Thom, my question was why didn't Fudge know of the time turner? Snape and the other teachers must have know but also knew that it was of a "top secret" matter not to me mentioned. Perhaps Hermione was not identified when the time turner was requested?

Would the MoM issue a time turner for use by an unnamed student of Hogwarts simply because the head master and staff requested it? Had other students used time turners? The professors did seem to take it easily in stride. It is almost as if they make plans in secret meeting with code word, deep cover operatives, emergency extraction plans, cover stories We even have a few teachers as members here that we know primarily by "code names.

We do. After all, we are plotting to take over the world. She knew who she was, she just had a gap in her memory about seeing Crouch Jr. Since Voldemort was able to find it, I think we can conclude that Obliviation doesn't erase the memory but bury it so it can't be found or retrieved.

I think what JKR wants us to believe is that what Hermione did was not as drastic. For one thing it seems to be easily reversible unlike say what happened to Lockhart who was still in a locked ward three years later. Although the book implies she worked alone, I suspect she probably told her parents before the spell. How else could they have gotten falsified passports with out help. Madam Pince - Jun 2, pm of Hermione confunded the passport people and transfigured their birth certificates There's always a possible answer Michael Franz - Jun 2, pm of Why do Hermione's defenders insist "it was the only way", when Harry's protection of the Dursleys proves that it was not?

I have yet to hear a true explanation of why what Harry did would have been impossible for Hermione. I mean, Darth Vader told Luke, "Come with me. It is the only way," and Luke said, "No It is the pathway to many abilities that some consider Can you learn these powers? Not from a teacher. Only through me can you achieve a power great enough to save people from dying. I think ol' Darth knows better than anyone that good intentions aren't enough.

Solitaire - Jun 2, pm of Is it possible that the Order didn't want to take on Hermione's family? Was she afraid that, if her parents knew the dangers, they might not allow her to go with Harry? Since the decision to do what she did obviously cost Hermione something--based on her emotional reaction when she talked about it with Harry and Ron--there must have been a reason she went that direction. Madam Pince - Jun 2, pm of I would bet that her parents wouldn't want her to go with Harry if they knew the full danger.

That may've been a reason. We know that in general the magical world was OK with helping muggles -- was it on the Solitaire - Jun 2, pm of Well, the Weasleys were "blood traitors," remember Michael Franz - Jun 7, am of I would bet that her parents wouldn't want her to go with Harry if they knew the full danger. Well, sure! Weasley didn't want any of the Trio to go!

But what, exactly, could she have done to stop them? Would Molly Weasley have really raised a wand against Harry "for his own good"? Maybe Imperio him into staying home and doing the dishes? Of course not. She'd coax, cajole, threaten, and plead. But she would never put a gun — or a wand — to Harry's head. But Hermione did, in fact, raise her wand against her parents. She deleted Mr. Granger and put two strangers in their place. But you say she was protecting them from torture and pain?

Why didn't she just use the Barty Crouch Jr. I'm pretty sure neither one of his parents will ever feel pain again.

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Somehow I doubt anyone would accept that argument, yet they unquestioningly accept the very same argument when Hermione uses it. The thing is, Hermione is really very good at logic. But when her emotions get the better of her I understand the sentiment that Hermione is arrogant like Dumbledore, but maybe her parents thought Hermione was right.

Alas, that method is permanent. Hermione's can be undone, if she lives. Michael Franz - Jun 7, pm of Hermione's can be undone, if she lives. A big if when you're going up against Voldemort, indeed. And, in fact, Hermione actually said that was one of the reasons she erased her parents' identities — if she died, they wouldn't remember having a daughter. That is, in my opinion, not much different than the Crouch Jr. Or, as they'd say on Law and Order, clear evidence of intent. Solitaire - Jun 7, pm of Michael, I suppose it is one of those issues on which we will never agree.

Chemyst - Jun 7, pm of I have yet to hear a true explanation of why what Harry did would have been impossible for Hermione. In that brief interlude after DD's death but before the Death Eaters gained control of the ministry, while the WW still believed Snape had killed DD and before Voldemort's propaganda machine accused Harry, protecting Harry would have been very important to the remnant of "good" wizards at the ministry.

Scrimgeour was a former auror, and early in HBP we hear DD point out that this auror experience gave him an understanding of the danger posed by Voldemort. He had to play politics. And I think the Minister saw that allowing the Order to protect Harry was Harry's best chance at survival. Scrimgeour knew the ministry was being infiltrated and therefore could not trust his own men; I think he probably helped "unofficially" as much as could.

The closest thing to canon that I have to back this up is that later Harry finds out Scrimgeour was tortured before he died but still didn't give Harry up. To a Ministry in turmoil, Hermione's parents would not qualify for special services. The Order was thin on personnel and high work. I suppose she could have begged Harry to use his influence to save her folks, but that goes against nearly everything we ever learned about her character. Harry didn't really do much at all to save the Dursleys; that was primarily a humane decision of the Order. Hermione was not an Order member nor had her parents ever been members as Harry's had.

So while the Order might "look after its own" out of respect to Lilly's sacrifice, they had no obligation to spend their precious resources on the muggle parent of someone who knows someone we need to protect. A long post to conclude that Hermione did not have the depth of resources to get protection for her family and, independent spirit that she is, would not try to impose. It would have been impossible for Hermione to protect her parents by sitting tight and waiting for the Order to hide them.

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Solitaire - Jun 7, pm of A very good explanation, Chemyst. It makes absolute sense. As a parent and also having read JKR's many comments on a parental willingness to die for their child, I think JKR would probably agree that any loving parent would be willing to risk any sort of horrific death rather than to forget entirely the existance of their child, especially knowing that their child could die and they'd never, ever know it.

Oh, yes, I'm sure some can come up with imaginary plots where Hermione tells her parents all about how they can endanger her, but that's not what JKR said was Hermione's motivation, and if it was Hermione's motivation, then her actions would be all the worse -- for all practical purposes killing the people her parents were in order to protect herself and her friends. Chemyst, in my opinion your argument only explains why the Ministry was willing to protect Harry, but doesn't explain a special willingness to protect the Dursleys after they are gone from Privet Dr and Harry leaving as well.

What's the point? To make Harry happy? The Ministry wasn't historically particularly interested in making Harry happy, especially when he wasn't willing to work with them. In any case, the protection of the Dursleys seems to be an Order action, more than the ministry. Why couldn't the Grangers have stayed with the Dursleys, where ever they were? Or with the Weasleys? I don't exactly see the huge problem in protecting a couple of more muggles in locations that were already being protected, other than some extra food and water and one more bed.

Solitaire - Jun 7, pm of Hermione probably thought she would be endangering the Weasleys by asking them to safeguard her parents. It might not have been a big deal We do not really know how much more difficult it might have been to have to "get outta Dodge" quickly if they'd had to move Muggles, too. Witches and Wizards could apparate and disapparate, as the Trio did, if they had to leave instantly. What about the Grangers? Is it even possible for Muggles to do side-along apparation? It seemed the Ministry managed to penetrate the Burrow's defenses at the wedding. What if they'd found the Grangers there?

Honestly, how many DEs do you suppose would put up with Uncle Vernon's big yap for more than a second or two before AK-ing him? We know enough of Harry and that pesky "saving people thing" to know that, even though he did not love the Dursleys, he would come back and attempt to save them if they got into trouble The Order were doing their best to safeguard Harry by safeguarding the Dursleys.

Hermione was doing the same by removing her parents from the danger. Why couldn't the Grangers have stayed with the Dursleys? Maybe Hermione realized her parents would not be able to take Uncle Vernon's anti-Wizarding attitudes and would eventually leave, putting themselves in danger. Hey, it's Jo's book. I'm willing to accept what she has done and roll with it. Orion - Jun 8, am of "Hermione's can be undone, if she lives. But in fact they wouldn't be dead, they would only have different memories.

They would happily live on in safety. There are many people who suffer from amnesia because of an accident, and I wouldn't consider their lives afterwards worthless. They have to start over again. Other people have to do similar things, like fugitives who lose everything. Not a good example, I know, they have their memories. Whether they'd like to erase the horrors in their memories or not is another question.

Chemyst - Jun 8, am of I was just tying to state the political climate after DD's death when Hermione acted to "protect" her parents. I said that the Order was "'look ing after its own' out of respect to Lily's sacrifice" when it saved her sister's family. I was showing that Hermione did not have the options of either Ministry or Order support to protect her parents. The only card she was holding was her friendship with Harry and she was not about to ask him for that sort of favor.

Have the Grangers have stay with the Dursleys? Get real! Let's just stick needles in their eyes while we are at it. They'd be in more danger than ever to be found with those blood traitors! The sole point of the post was to show that when you look at the political climate of those weeks and compare it to the resources available, it is clear that Hermione did not have anywhere near the same options that Harry had. You can't really compare their choices— and Harry didn't really make choices until after the Ministry fell; before he was of age, he just followed the Order's decisions for him.

It was Hermione who was making adult decisions on her own at that point in time. Wynnleaf I am suggesting that Hermione could have explained to her parents that as a Muggleborn witch who was a close friend of Harry Potter's that she could be a special target of Death Eaters especially because she had no intentions of going back to Hogwarts for her 7th year. At that point in time I don't think Muggleborns were banned from Hogwarts yet. Death Eaters and corrupt Ministry Officials would at some point be looking for her and questioning her parents.

Hermione specifically tells Harry that she has told her parents alot about him. The parents choice is not between a horrific death and forgetting about their daughter's existence but making sure that whatever tidbit of information they know about Harry does not get into the wrong hands. They may have been willing to have the memory change because they trust their daughter's judgment. Hermione probably thought she would be endangering the Weasleys by asking them to safeguard her parents.

Solitaire She would be endangering the Weasley's because she would know that the ministry would be questioning why Ron isn't going to school. It would look suspicious if two Muggles were living there as well. Orion The people living happily on the other side of the world are the Grangers in bodies, but not their true "selves" at least not that they can remember. Personally, I would consider losing my memory and living on as some other person for all intents and purposes becoming a vegetable -- oh how nice, at least I'm alive, but "I'm" not really there anymore.

I think there's a big difference of opinion in that many posters seem to assume that you can loose all of your memories and still be "you". But often with amnesia sufferers the personalities do seem to change. I'm not saying the new personality is worthless, but it's not necessarily still "you". Besides, who would choose amnesia, even if you can somehow create a new life? Chemyst The Weasleys chose to take the risk; why not the Grangers?

Sure, the Weasleys are wizards, so they can fight back, but they were still at a huge risk -- after all plenty of wizards died if they got caught by DEs and LV. Is there some measure of risk where it's okay to make up your own mind so that, for instance, Ron isn't supposed to obliviate his parents and spirit them away to Australia, because they are somehow within whatever the accepted level of risk is that you can choose for yourself.

But Hermione is okay to make the decision for her parents? In any case, Arthur and Molly aren't the only options, just one option. There's also Bill, or other Order members that we rarely hear much about. And Order members do seem to care about each other -- it's not like they only care about Harry. In any case, caring about Harry isn't the same as caring about taking care of the Dursleys. Harry cares far more about Hermione than the Dursleys, so why would the Order be more interested in protecting them after Harry left home?

In other words, if they were so willing to help her protect info they'd have about Harry they could agree to change names and move to Australia. If LV found them - obliviated or not - he'd still search their memories and possibly find out something. But he actually wouldn't find out anything important like about horcruxes or what the Trio were up to. The main reason to worry would be that he'd hurt the Grangers, not that he'd actually find out anything useful. All of the memories that weren't generally known by many and could hurt the trio were in Hermione's head as well which, by the way, were at far greater risk residing in Hermione's brain, which LV could easily have ransacked should she be captured - and she was captured and only luckily escaped.

Should Hermione have obliviated herself? No, because she assumed her brain not so much her magical defense skills was much more important to Harry than the risk of losing info to LV. She was right about that of course, but my point is that it wasn't her ability to fight off LV in a duel that made it okay for her to stay and risk her life.

Look, I completely agree that JKR probably didn't give much thought to her small plot point of having Hermione obliviate her parents, because if she'd thought much about it at all she'd have remembered it later. But the reasons I think JKR didn't give it a lot of thought is because 1. I think she wouldn't think any loving parent would ever want to be "protected" like this and 2. And obviously, for you, what Hermione did wouldn't be the right choice. But you can't assume that everyone is of the same opinion.

That could be appealing to some. It would depend on your situation of course; and I'm not saying that it applies to the Grangers. Maybe JKR was ok with this because she had enough confidence in Hermione to knew it would never become the issue we're making it out to be. Sheperdess It's not my assumption, but it appears Hermione is quite willing to make the opposite assumption. If Hermione had asked her parents and they were happy to go off and live completely new lives in Australia, then why obliviate them?

After all, if LV actually found them, he'd search their minds anyway. So the danger of harming them is the same whether they go to Australia and take on new identities willingly with their memories or be obliviated. If Hermione had asked them first and they were willing to go into new identities in Australia, then the only other reason to obliviate them would be to protect Harry from some sort of crucial knowledge the Grangers might have.

What crucial knowledge would they have that plenty of other people had? Surely, if Order members weren't told, Hermione hadn't told her parents about the horcruxes. So what other damaging info could the Grangers reveal? DEs already know about the Cloak, the friendship between the Trio, who Harry's other friends are, etc.

In fact, there was no reason to obliviate them except Hermione's own assumption that that was the only way to get them into the new identities. But to do that, she makes the assumption that losing their memories won't be, to them, like losing self. And this isn't "starting over" like someone offered the opportunity to leave the bad behind and start fresh. They don't lose just bad memories, they lose deepest best memories, deep and most loved relationships, etc. I realize you're joking, but I doubt that would be the reason, otherwise it makes JKR okay with any wrong action as long as, in the end, it all worked out.

You know, a kind of "it's okay to cause deep risk or harm to others as long as you fix it later. Madam Pince - Jun 9, am of You know, sometimes I think JKR just really isn't all that "deep," particularly in the later books when she was rushed. She just wrote details as needed to advance the story, and moved on with it. There have been interviews where she's sort of seemed befuddled that anyone would even bring up the question -- she takes the attitude of "That doesn't even enter into the thread of the story, so why do you care?

I'd bet the whole Hermione mind-wipe falls into that category. Because surely if she'd put any serious thought into it at all, she'd have noticed at least some of the issues we're discussing. I mean, regardless of which stance you take on the "vegetable" thing, clearly there are issues. But, they don't advance the story -- they're only interesting when you do in-depth character analysis and study the plot like we do. JKR would probably do an if she'd read this thread. Solitaire - Jun 9, am of Perhaps, after telling her parents all about Harry and hearing what they had to say "if he were my child," she knew how they would feel about what she was preparing to do instead of return to school.

Believe me, my parents left me in no doubt whatsoever about how they would have felt had I done various things my friends had done. I have to say that their sentiments informed the greater part of my conduct when I was growing up There were things I simply did not do because I didn't want to upset them. Just because you and I'm speaking collectively rather than to any one person would rather endure torture and possibly death--and know that your only child had been tortured and murdered--instead of being blissfully enchanted and sent to a place you'd always wanted to go anyway, doesn't mean others would feel the same.

Every day people give up careers they love, homes, family, and friends and go into witness protection programs. For those left behind, it's as if they have been wiped from the face of the earth, because their previous lives are lost to them. Any attempt to contact loved ones weakens the protection that can be provided for them.

I realize that most people do this voluntarily I think a Hermione-like enchantment might be welcomed by many who are enduring such separations and emotional torture. A lot of people are unable to cope with the pressures and develop emotional problems. Others break cover and try to contact someone from their old lives Hermione would know better than anyone what her parents could and couldn't handle in the way of pressure and torture. Perhaps she felt that the anguish they would feel over losing her--even supposing that's the only thing they had to cope with--would be more than she knew they were capable of handling.

Many marriages and families break up when a child dies, because people start playing the "blame game," and I can see a lot of potential for it there. Hermione also would know that not having to worry about parents constantly would make her a better ally to Harry than she could be if her attention and efforts were divided between helping him and attempting to keep her parents safe. Jo knew the character of Hermione well.

She is a thinker and a planner. I think Hermione's actions are entirely consistent with her character in the previous six books. Madam Pince - Jun 9, pm of I think they're consistent with her character's brain and logic, but I think they're at odds with how appalled she was with the whole concept of "the greater good.

She said she was opposed to the concept, but she did it herself when she tried to trick the Hogwarts house-elves into picking up clothes and freeing themselves. That's sort of like what she did to her parents. Solitaire I guess, upon reflection, I think Hermione is a bit inconsistent with herself on that. Madam Pince I agree, regardless how much thought JKR gave to this tiny plot point, Hermione was acting completely in character.

And Hermione's character is not completely consistent. For instance, she doesn't always plan things out very well -- in fact, she often plans things rather poorly. For instance, her great plan to "protect" the DA through the charmed list didn't protect anyone at all. The only thing it did was tell the DA after the fact who the informant was. Or Hermione's bright plan to carry along Phineas' portrait. Wow, if Phineas had been helping out the Bad Guys, that would have been one of the most idiotic moves Hermione could make. They knew the other portrait was in the Headmaster's office and that the portraits there had to obey the Headmaster.

And yet there was Hermione, bringing it along assuming her planning was well thought out when it wasn't. Sure, Hermione does think a lot of things through quite well, but she makes huge mistakes that could easily cost them a Lot, and it's just that luck is on her side. And Hermione is, as Madam Pince pointed out, completely in character when she decides to take over someone else's life "for their own good", quite willing to cause major life-changing events for others without so much as a "by your leave".

She's neither consistently good at planning, consistently right in her decisions, nor consistent in her ethics. Solitaire - Jun 9, pm of I didn't say she planned well. I just said she was a planner, and she is. I still think she made what was probably the best decision possible for her parents, given her limited resources and her predicament. I don't require anyone to agree.

Chemyst - Jun 10, am of Harry cares far more about Hermione than the Dursleys, so why would the Order be more interested in protecting them after Harry left home? I just don't see any way that JKR could have furthered the plot by having any Order member help hide the Grangers because any such alliance would have put both the Grangers and the member at greater risk, and because the Order was a fairly small band with limited resources.

For the sake of consistency, having them leave the country was a good choice. That is the advice given to the Cattermole family and others. Merely giving the Grangers an unplotable residence in Australia may not have been enough because, as we saw, security at both GH and 12GP was breeched. As my own personal interpretation of plot strategy, having the Order hide the parents of a friend of the son of their fallen comrades does not make anyone safer. JKR had a talented, independent, adult witch in Hermione and needed to get the Grangers out of the way—to a place where they could not be found and with no chance of a misspoken memory ever dropping a clue that they were not native Aussies; so she just did it.

Out of sight; out of mind—literally and figurativley. As my own personal fan-fic to fill in the holes, I think Hermione probably told her parents half-truths to get them to cooperate. I think the Order eventually stashed the Dursleys in Canada for the interim. Don't you think a winter in the Yukon Territory would serve them right? Solitaire - Jun 10, am of Don't you think a winter in the Yukon Territory would serve them right? LOL Most definitely!

However, you need to read the fanfic I'm reading now Chemyst But the people who breeched the security of these two places knew that they existed, and where they were. They only had to get around the Fidelius in order to find them. But if Hermione sent her parents off to Australia, she being the only one who knew they were there, I don't see how the DEs could have traced them. Doesn't Aberforth suggest that Harry go abroad with Ron and Hermione to save themselves from Voldemort?

I don't see why it was necessary to rob the Grangers of their identities and memories, and substitute Wendall and Monica Williams in their place. Quite honestly, I always thought that was a pretty lame suggestion, and I think Aberforth knew it. This was war--a Wizarding World War--and Voldemort was playing for keeps. His intent clearly seemed to be to wipe Harry and his friends--and, most likely, everyone who'd supported them or who was related to them--off the face of the earth.

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The kids understood this and acted accordingly. Of course, it was not difficult to find him, but I'm sure Voldemort would have been ready to do a bit of searching for anyone really important. Nobody seems to have considered hiding the Potters in a far-away corner of the world. I don't think the Grangers were important to Voldemort, at least not initially. Still, if they had been easily available, Voldemort could have used them to lure Hermione into a trap in case he understood how important Hermione was to Harry.

It is not probable that the Granger parents knew anything of importance, still for their own safety and because Hermione wanted to avoid a situation in which later Xeno found himself, they had to be moved out of Voldemort's sight. For a while, I also thought that the disappearance of the Granger parents would give the impression to DE's that Hermione had disappeared with them, i. It is another question whether the Grangers were safer without their memories or not. On the one hand, in this way they could not give themselves away accidentally, but on the other hand, they did not know there was something they had to avoid - what if they decided one day to go on holiday in England?

My conclusion is that the memory charm must have had a different purpose: Hermione either was not sure that her parents would consent to leaving the country and leaving her behind in mortal danger, or she wanted to spare them the feeling of loss and mourning. In the first case they were not given a choice - it's a bit inconsistent with the main theme of the novel -, while in the second case, well, I'm sure Hermione's intentions were good, but even Muggles have a right to their own lives and fates, including experiencing their own losses and sorrows.

In theory, it is possible that her parents agreed to it all, but I find it difficult to imagine that loving parents would ever really want to forget that they once had a child Thinking something like that in a moment of despair is one thing, cool-headed premeditation is quite another. But I can very well imagine that it was easier for Hermione if she did not have to think of it in every moment that her parents would be devastated by her death. Madam Pince - Jun 11, am of I don't see why it was necessary to rob the Grangers of their identities and memories, and substitute Wendall and Monica Williams in their place.

I put myself in the Grangers' place -- as a parent, there's no way in heck that I would go away into hiding somewhere and leave my year-old child to face an evil warlord. I would darn sure want to be around to be available, muggle or not. I still don't think this makes what Hermione did OK, in my personal opinion, but it's a spin on it Basically, what Julia said in her second paragraph JKR definitely explained this to us, but in my opinion she could have emphasized it a bit more in the finale.

Solitaire - Jun 11, am of Perhaps it would not have even occurred to Voldemort that parents could be used as a lure, or that Hermione could be used as a lure for Harry. Doubt it! That is precisely what he did with Sirius, isn't it? IMO, it is this prior occurrence that showed Hermione the awful use to which her parents could be put in the war, even though they were "only Muggles. We're putting our foot down on this! You're staying right here! But it was necessary for her to do so. She would have had to figure out a way to, not only keep her parents safe, but also get away from them to go with Harry, and keep them from worrying themselves to death about her safety.

And she had limited time to do this in. Solitaire - Jun 11, pm of A very realistic scenario, Shepherdess. Madam Pince - Jun 11, pm of That is precisely what he did with Sirius, isn't it? Voldy was able to "look into" Harry's mind and probably actually even "feel" the emotional connection, as Harry was able to feel Voldy's emotions. This wouldn't have been the case with Hermione and her parents, and Harry with Hermione, so he may not have thought it. Remember, Slytherins naturally expect people to act in ways that serve their own self-interests. I don't know I'm just thinking about JKR pointing us in the direction of the idea that Voldy's lack of understanding of love was one of his major weaknesses.

Sirius is only one example. Voldemort also used Ginny to lure Harry into the Chamber of Secrets; and, in the battle of Hogwarts, he specifically tried to make Harry give himself up to him by blackmailing him with the death of people who were dying "for Harry".

Voldemort himself would never have been able to make a sacrifice that he was sure Harry would make nevertheless. In a broader sense, DE strategies seemed to include intimidating people by hurting their loved ones: Xeno is one example, Neville is another. Michael Franz - Jun 11, pm of "Oh, no, you're not! It's not like Hermione doesn't have experience using that. Sure it would give her a chance to walk out the door without them stopping her, but she couldn't just leave them there like that. It wouldn't keep Voldemort from capturing them and using them to lure Hermione.

Or keep him from torturing them to get information about where Hermione and Harry might be. It wouldn't keep them from worrying constantly about what might be happening to her. Whether it was the best thing to do or not, modifying their memories was a actually a charitable thing for her to do. In addition to solving several problems at the same time.

Michael Franz - Jun 11, pm of Whether it was the best thing to do or not, modifying their memories was a actually a charitable thing for her to do. Oh, come now. If it did, every mob hitman would be a saint. My point was that she's had experience in dealing with well-meaning but misguided people who've tried to stand in her way.

Sometimes, those people even get awarded House points — if you know what I mean. Nor have I ever said that there's no other way to solve the problems that were solved by what what she did. But what she did did solve those problems. Yes, Hermione has had experience using Petrificu Totallus, and perhaps she could have made one temporary.

And yes, that would have allowed her to leave without being stopped. But that doesn't solve any of the other problems. If Hermione's parents absolutely refused to let Hermione battle the Dark Lord and wanted to try and stop her, or worse try to help her, or they refused to hide, how would you propose she stop them? Solitaire - Jun 11, pm of Madam Pince, Voldemort wouldn't have needed to read Harry's mind to know about Hermione. There were plenty of people in the WW--not the least of whom was Toad Face herself--who knew about Harry's close friendship with Hermione and also knew she was Muggle-born.

Julia: Voldemort did not understand love and he made some huge mistakes in this respect, but he was capable of some crude manipulation based on others' ability to love at least on certain occasions. Michael, I do not believe anyone, including me, has said that Hermione's actions were morally right. What we said was that her heart and her intentions were in the right place. She was seeking, with the resources at hand, to prevent her parents from being harmed, from being used to harm her, and from being devastated if she should be killed in the War.

Remember, too, that she was operating from the perspective of a childless young adult, so her actions were probably based on how she assumed she would feel in their position. Again, no one has said Hermione made a morally impeccable decision. I do believe, however, that she made what she felt was the best and most humane decision in the circumstances I do not know about others, but I do know that I think very differently now about many things than I did when I was Hermione's character might well feel differently about her own actions once her own kids are in their late teens.

We'll never know, unless Jo either tells us or gives us another story and allows Hermione to tell us. Madam Pince - Jun 12, am of But I don't know that he would've known that this translates to "would sacrifice a lot for They just don't think anybody would be that "stupid. Maybe Bellatrix. But it seems to me that most of Voldemort's other followers preferred to stay out of the limelight and keep their traps shut, lest something they suggest would fail. I will see my doctor next month. The nose bleeds have gotten much better. So I think a huge part of it was due to the stress. Glad that your enjoying your summer AND that you stepped out of your comfort zone.

Scary I know but was it worth it for you? I hope so. I think, the worst part of this or any life altering condition is that it makes doing the things we love so much very hard. Personally I love going to the beach and basking in the sun. I do not think I could handle that any more. We have gotten a lot of unpacking done. Glad to hear you received medication to help with that unpleasant side effect. Hopefully it starts to go away for you soon. Goodluck with the doctors appointment next month — I hope it goes well for you!

Thanks for your kind words about my experience with stepping out of my comfort zone. It is likely a small thing for others, but like you said: when living with a life-threatening illness, it makes it a bigger deal, I think. Part of me actually does still think it is a little bogus, however, this mindfulness course pulled together the physiological impact that mindfulness and meditation can have on the body. I love physiology and biology, so I actually found this fascinating. I also have one beside my bed right now as I write this.

Take good care of yourself! I had a lung biopsy to confirm the diagnoses. I was on Ofev for almost 1 year but I lost 60 lbs and looked like death warmed over. I have been off of it for about a year and have added some pounds back. Getting back to pulmonary rehab finally.

Sorry to hear you had such trouble with weight loss on OFEV. Was this gradual, or did the weight come off rather quickly? Was it from unpleasant side effects like GI issues and loss of appetite? Are you nervous about starting it due to the side effects? I look forward to getting to know you a bit more through the forums!

Much appreciated! I hope this message finds you doing well and that you enjoy the upcoming weekend ahead. Thank you very much for the mg pill information. I assumed they would be in solid form as I had a meeting a week ago with the Genentech Esbriet representative and he informed me that the capsule form with granules in them was discontinued awhile back and it only now comes in solid pill form.

They say they will give the information to my pulmonologist and he will let me know if and how I can even take it. I know your reply was to Michael, but was just thinking of you. Still no update from the doctor yet about how you can consume the Esbriet, huh? I wonder how long it will take for them to come up with a solution for you, or to determine whether or not you can take them.

Did you ever get an opportunity to inquire if OFEV comes in capsules that can be given via your tube? I am on OFEV and have no idea but can see what I can find out for you if it comes down to your not being able to take Esbriet. I will keep my fingers crossed though that this is not the case! Kind regards, Charlene. Thank you for your continued interest in my problems with Esbriet. No, I still have not heard anything positive from the Esbriet manufacturer. It has been just over a little over a week ago that I presented the problem to the Esbriet Clinical Coordinator during our information session.

I guess these sessions will be monthly. I plan on calling them next week also. I have not done any inquiry about the from that OFEV is in per capsules containing powder or solid pills. Reading about them on their site, the instructions for taking it are about the same as for Esbriet e.

So I would guess they are time release pills that are not to be crushed also. I hope you have a good weekend too. It seems to be just more convenient to sit at home and stay cool. Thanks for your reply, and for getting back in touch with me. As always, it is great to hear from you! I wonder if the reps goal is to bring more information with him at your meeting in September? That would be good to know in advance!

Goodluck with the calls to follow up with the insurance and the drug company. Not worth overloading yourself with information at this point until you hear back from the Esbriet team, I agree! No problem re: sharing the information, just as something to think about. I hope you have a nice weekend too! I am actually looking forward to spending the afternoons indoors it is humid here again this weekend and working on some outstanding projects.

It will feel good to get those done, and then tonight at PM I have an MRI as part of my neuro follow up from the accident. Sorry I am late in responding to your last post to me. This morning I noticed I had a broken lawn sprinkler and had to dig it up and replace it. I have such a hard time doing anything anymore that it seemed to take forever. I must stop and rest every so often. It was a lot cheaper than having a lawn service do it though. This IPF and age is not being very nice to me on any projects. I guess his meetings will gain us something later, I hope.

Your action has really helped. We were supposed to get some rain maybe today and tomorrow but so far nothing seems to have worked out. The clouds have all moved out and now they say it will just be hot and dry tomorrow. It is so dry that they are afraid that if any storm clouds come in, we might get some lightning with it and just cause more fires. We have had so many fires around the state.

We need something to put out the fires clear the air. I do hope your MRI comes out well today. Please keep me posted on the results. You are lucky they do things like that on a weekend there. Most places here in the US everything is closed on a Sat or Sun. Enjoy the rest of your weekend anyway. Hope you got your sprinkler issue all sorted out.

Anyway, sorry I digress…. Thanks for keeping us forum and I updated on any progress you make with the Esbriet rep and the insurance company. The weekend actually turned out to be ok temperature-wise, but it has still been a quiet weekend for me which I enjoy. It was really scary but it cooled things off a bit, which has been nice. Right now I am enjoying my coffee with my windows open and a fan going as opposed to the AC. My heart aches for my friends in BC. I actually have a friend who had a lung transplant not too long ago and has had to relocate until the fires in that province clear because there is just so much smoke in the air.

Are you impacted by the smoke at all from the fires in or surrounding your state? The MRI went just fine. They were a bit behind, but I was in and out of the scanner which was good and they actually gave me props to use to help me avoid laying completely flat which makes me cough like crazy. All is well, and I have a follow up with the neurologist about it next Friday. Good Morning to you too Charlene although I guess it is starting the afternoon where you are.

I had my cup of coffee at about AM when I got up. I just drink one of them a day too and it goes through the stomach fast enough, so I can eat my cup of food between 10AM or a lot of times later in the day. I still love to try eating a little different food just to satisfy my crave for their taste.

I miss not eating things. I really love eating all food types. I have never had a problem gaining weight and I still weigh about the same as I did when I was I guess the night feeding tube keeps my weight stable and gives me the nutrients I need. The lawn sprinkler problem is now settled and working like it should today. I hope it stays that way as it really did me in for the rest of the day yesterday fixing it. I saw the picture you designed and posted.

That looks crafty. No pun intended. Do you do other types of designs and crafts? Do you sell a lot of those type items or just on an occasional request.?

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One of my daughters is handy at crafting things to decorate the house. She has made a lot of things we have hanging on the walls in our house. Her husband has a commercial shop where he makes doors, cabinets and other types of house items so she has access to any woods, stains or other items needed to make plaques, frames, etc. She also likes to sew things. She made curtains and bed spreads for our bedroom and once had a commercial business making hot tub covers.

She also loves to paint things. We really take advantage of her. Sorry to hear about your bout with the heavy rain storm causing you to have to pull your car over. That can be dangerous when it comes up all the sudden. I kind of wish we could get some rain. I must run our lawn sprinklers every day to keep the lawn from drying out. No, I am not close to the fires in BC. I live in the South Eastern part of Idaho. California, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Utah, Wyoming and Nevada and Idaho have many fires going on and we seem to get the smoke funneled into our part of the state.

We have and had a lot of fires around us locally that were caused by dry lightning storms and people camping. We get a lot of warnings on the news about the smoke causing respiratory problems and how to protect ourselves from it. Happy to hear that your MRI went well. Lying down causes me reflux and regurgitation problems when they X-ray me, so they usually prop me up as high as they can, but I can still go through the machine.

I have heard where they are getting a new scanner that gives more a person more room. I hope they have it by the time I get my next CT scan. I hope you can enjoy the rest of your Sunday and have a good week coming? Thanks again for your responses as I really love to hear from you. So you must be a few hours behind me then, are you on CST? Glad you had a good breakfast, and eating as much or little as you can is important.

We want to feel comfortable too! Do you ever do this? Thanks for the kind words about my crafting projects! Having this has really been a saviour for me through my diagnosis. It allows me something to focus on when I need some time alone or the quiet of my own home, and it really brings me a lot of joy to try out different ideas. So the answer to your question is yes, sometimes I sell my products and make custom orders for people and other times I just do it for fun.

It really resonates with me… likely you too? Sounds awesome that your daughter has a talent for home decor and projects as well. Sounds like she is very talented! Do you find it bothers your breathing at all? My friend safely relocated out of BC to protect her new lungs from the fires. I hope you have a good week as well, anything coming up for you this week? Talk to you soon…. Its one of my favourites! Since it is summer time, we are advanced 1 hour earlier for convenience of the farmers, so we are on the same time as CST. That puts us just 2 hours earlier than the EST zone now.

I believe you said you live someplace in Quebec, I guess not too far from NY. No, I have not been drinking protein shakes. Since I can eat about a cup of solid food per day, I do like to eat some solid foods I crave Just for the taste of it, and I take no liquid with it. As I am on a feeding tube for 12 hours at night, the special liquid we put in the feeding bag is a high in protein and vitamins and supplies my nutritional needs. I do have to have my real early daily cup of coffee to wake up. The smoke that makes it into the house is annoying and causes my eyes to burn a little and gives me a runny nose and other type of allergy symptoms, but I just put up with it.

It is so hazy outside from the smoke that it is sometimes hard to see the mountains around us. It is like a heavy fog. Not many people around here do. They just recommend people to stay indoors more. It is too bad you friend had to leave the BC area because of the smoke. Did she live close to the Pacific? I hope the weather gets better and they can get the fires under control and out. I am glad to hear your accident concussion symptoms are abating some. Did you have a lot of headaches from it? Its nice you are going back to the cottage this weekend and presenting items for a craft show.

Is your cottage in or close to a town where a lot of people can view your products? I do hope you can sell some and get some orders for later sales to help with your finances. That was a real cute design on the card you had attached. The bird flight and chair fit into the relaxed appearance. She spends a lot of time each different holiday putting things around the house that pertains to the holiday.

She also spends a lot of time framing different things and hanging pictures and other decorations around the house too. She even decorated the basement bedrooms with different things that pertain to the name she gave them. One is called the Aloha room and has a lot of Hawaiian decorations and pictures in it. Another is called the Heritage room. She has a lot of old fixtures and furniture in it. Great to hear from you, and thanks for the explanation re: standard time zones.

That always makes me sad, when it gets dark early in the evenings, although I am ready for the high heat and humidity of summer to end, I have to admit. I can eat solid foods and enjoy them from time to time, however, I admit, as of recently I am more interest in liquid stuff like shakes and protein drinks. I do need to get back to eating solid foods per my dietitian, as I am not necessarily getting my calories and nutritional needs met by consuming just liquids.

That would really bother me I think! Yes, I am sad for my friend who had to relocate while the fires are still burning, although it is so important that she takes care of her new lungs. The concussion symptoms were pretty bad from April — June, even though the accident was in December. I had frequent headaches, dizziness, foggy vision and was excessively tired, although that could be caused by anything I suppose. My cottage is directly west of a very busy beach town in the summer, and is directly on a great lake. Regardless, it should be fun as I enjoy making these items for people or even to hang around my own house.

Thanks as always for sharing, and I hope you have a great day today! Take care, Charlene. At a meeting 3 weeks ago, I had with the Genentech rep. I told him of the Esbriet instructions telling me not to take it by crushing it or taking it without food and that have a frozen stomach and take things via a feeding tube into my intestines. He told me not to start taking the drug until he had contacted the company and he would contact my doctor to tell me when and how to start. I decided to contact Genentech myself via phone and talked to their medical staff.

After being transferred from nurse to nurse and then to the chief nurse without any solution, they transferred me to their pharmacy staff. There, the same thing happened. I went from 2 different pharmacist to the best one that they said would know. Their office hours expired without a callback. I had to wait another day to try to contact the doctor, so I decided to contact my medical insurance provider to see if I was even going to be able to get their coverage since they had sent me an insurance coverage denial 2 months ago.

They had said my doctor could appeal the denial. When I called my insurance company complaint resolution department, they said the appeal was still waiting for a personal letter from me stating why I felt I needed the Esbriet. They said it could be sent via FAX if I wanted to and that it could take up to days before they would come to a decision after receiving the required personal letter. They said all they had on their computer was that it was awaiting appeal. I Faxed it Thursday, so I may find out in a month or so.

She put me on hold and talked to the doctor about it. She said the doctor told me to just go ahead and crush it and take it through the intestine feeding tube and to start taking it Friday, today. I told the nurse that I hated to start taking it without knowing if I would be able to get it from my insurance company when I had used up my day free sample.

She said a few of the programs were like a grant and I could get it free through them. So, today I took my first Esbriet tablet on the schedule they sent me to start on. Next, I will be able to work up to being able to take the 9 per day they want you to work up to. I guess then, I can switch to the stronger one-a-day dose that Michael Lamkin referred to. We will see how it goes. I hope you enjoy your weekend at your beach house this weekend and the craft show turns out great for you and you get some good orders for your crafts. That was the first thing that caught my eye and thoughts when I saw it.

Nice job! Great talent! From the mileages you gave me about your location, I see you are at a location real close to a great lake and real close to excellent beaches. I really envy you being so close to the water and those beaches. Looking at picture of some of those beaches on the Internet, it looks like people are swimming and having a good time. If I go someplace to get away it would have to be a motel, pitch a tent, rent an RV or cabin. We sold our camping trailer and boat quite some time ago. No stamina. We have a lot of close lakes with cabins on them, but we never did purchase a cabin on them.

We did finally get some rain on Wednesday. The storm did contain a lot of lightning, so I guess it probably just started more fires and the wind spread those that were burning. They did comment that we were getting a lot of the smoke funneled in from the British Columbia fires as well as all our surrounding ones. Well, again, enjoy your beach house weekend and I hope everything turns out well for you at the craft show.

Keep me posted. I look forward to your reading your replays and life status challenges. No worries at all re: taking time to respond to my post. This week coming up is super busy for me as well but the week after Sept 4th week will give me some breathing room…. How incredibly frustrating for you! I find it so bizzare that they need a letter from a patient stating why they want to taking one of the only drugs that slows down the progression of this illness.

I think wanting to live longer is the only answer we can give them, and should warrant an immediate approval in my mind. Everyone deserves an opportunity to live longer, since we did nothing to cause this disease. These two calls would be enough to aggravate and exhaust me for days.

I hope you did something for yourself to lift your spirits back up after these two calls…. I am frustrated for you! How has the start of taking them been for you? Thanks for the well wishes re: the craftshow. The weather was absolutely terrible for it though, thankfully it was indoors. It rained for hours on end yesterday, and just came down in buckets!

Some people asked if they could custom order some pieces as Christmas gifts so I am excited about that! It is wonderful, very sandy only a few rocks and lots of space for both water craft and people to swim. Due to IPF and a compromised-immune system, I never take the chance when there are warnings out but I know others do.

How has the heat and humidity been there? Is the air quality any better from the fires? Hopefully it is a bit better for you even since you wrote last. Wishing you a nice rest of the weekend, and I look forward to hearing how the Esbriet has gone for you. Ray King. Hi Ray, I have been reading your stories about trying to get on the Esbriet. While I was fortunate that my insurance company, surprisingly, approved the meds. I was able to get a grant through health well to help with the cost the insurance company did not pay.

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The grant ends in Nov, and I have to wait until the beginning on next year to reapply do to a financial thing. I digress, while taking Esbriet, it was doing its job with minimal side affect. Even the fat fairy was leaving me alone. My appetite changed dramatically. Things that I loved to eat is no longer the case. Then 3. They now have me on OFEV. I am not very hungry and I am still losing weight.

One doctor says I need to lose weight in order, when the time comes, to be considered for a transplant. My other pulmonologist said to not to loose too much. Now while I was on Esbriet, before we knew that I was definitely having an allergic reaction I tired calling Esbriets nurses line. Like you, I was transferred from one line to another and in a word, I thought their help line sucked.

I hope that you are able to get some answers and hopefully get on the meds. Good luck, I am hoping for the best for you. That may help me very much and that it is possible to get it even though your medical insurance approved the meds. Is your insurance company paying anything even though you got the Heath Well grant?

I am very sorry to learn that even though Esbriet may have helped you for a short time that you digressed and had to change to OFEV. I am on a feeding tube for 12 hours at night to keep me stable and probably must be on it all day too to maintain everything. I must lie all night long on my back in a head elevated bed. You may be lucky and get the lung transplant. If you do, I hope that takes care of your problem. I am over the minimum year age to be able to have a lung transplant, so it is not available for me.

I agree with you wholly about the poor medical help you get from calling Esbriet. I wish you very much luck with your process on coping with this disease. Reading your posts and some others, I guess I am not too far into the problems that come from IPF yet and I am not looking forward to them. Best of luck to you and I will be watching for your posts and replies to see how you are getting along. Then I was in the catastrophic category with the drug plan. As for the weight. Boston told me I needed to lose weight to be consider, my doctor here told me not to lose too much.

Go figure. I needed to lose weight. So far in less than 9 months I have lost 20 pounds. I know a bulk of that weight loss is because of the meds. So many things I used to love I simply have no desire to eat. Bacon was the first thing to go. I am lucky if I can get a slice in now. Last night, pizza came off the list. Had a small slice on Thursday and it was all I could do to eat it. Just does not appeal to me any more. Every once in awhile I get a case of the hungry horrors but not often. My issues with the IPF have gotten worse I think in part to the stress I recently went through trying to sell one house while buying another.

If my doctor knew what was going on he would have clobbered me. It is my hope that once things really settle down still trying to set up the new house that the issues with SOB, low O2 levels and just feeling like ick will go away. If not, it may be an indicator that the process of IPF has decided to pick up speed. Not too positive about how my pulmonary function test will go on Wed. I just hope that they do not decide that I have come to a point where I need to go on oxygen. If I do, hopefully it will only be at night time.

Before I forget going back to the funding for the meds. As indicated I was lucky and my insurance company has been very good about approving the meds. Something evidently they have to do every year but that is handled by my doctor I have never heard of the crap your insurance company is making you go through on the appeal process.

That is crazy But I assume yes we all know what happens when one assumes. It was nice to hear from you. It sounds like your insurance company paid a lot of your Esbriet cost. I will look at the Health Well Foundation later today and see what I must do to qualify and fill out the forms. My doctor did say there were some other coverage for it and I think they did mention the Health Well Foundation. I guess what Boston told you that you had to lose weight before the surgery is normal.

They must cut through a lot of tissue to get to the lungs and I guess they want as much regular flesh to sew together as they can to aid in the healing of the wound. It sounds like you are proceeding with the weight loss if you reduced by 20 lbs. How much do they want you to lose? I love both too, but I can only eat a couple of bites of pizza when we get it and just a couple of pieces of bacon or link sausage without getting full. Pizza has always been one of the foods I have loved and crave for.

She likes pizza well too and occasionally purchases just a large slice of cooked pizza and gives me a bite or two.

Mainly, since I can only eat a very small amount of food once a day, she purchases frozen TV dinners and eats one of them for her meals. I can only handle a cup of food per day. That also fouls up things for going out to eat. They are very tolerant about suggesting we order something in to eat.

I really crave going out and eating a good steak or something, but I know I would only be able to eat a bite or so of it and then get a take-home for the rest of my meal. Bummer again! Oh well, I guess that is the way life goes sometime. Yes, the feeding tube is very clumsy to have to use. It is the result of a botched Hiatal Hernia surgery. The surgeon cut the main nerve to my stomach during the surgery and that ended up leaving me with the frozen stomach which can only now work 20 percent of its capability to pass anything that goes through it.

I tried to sue the surgeon, but I was told by an attorney that that can happen maybe 10 percent of the time and is not suable. So, if your doctor ever suggests that type of surgery, take heed. I have read that stress can worsen the IPF effects so as you said, the stress of purchasing a new house and moving into it may have caused a lot of your problems.

I hope the change goes well for you. I am glad that you are not on oxygen yet. I am not there yet either. I am thankful that we own our house and have lived in it for 48 years. We have contemplated on moving to a smaller house that is more handicapped accessible, but we love our home and my wife has it fixed up the way she wants it. Getting rid of them is our ever on going objective. I will keep reviewing your posts or requests and reply as soon as I can.

Oh I would love that. Right now the foundation pays what the insurance company does not, but for a few months I am going to be on the hook. Assuming I do not develop any problems with this medication. Hope not. As there is nothing else I can take. My meds are processed by CVS speciality. Could have gone though another company but where I want to sign for my medication, I opted for CVS as I can have it shipped to their store and pick it up there.

Then the day it was suppose to arrive around 2 PM, it did not show up until almost 7. I hate having to wait around for a delivery so it was then that I said to just ship it to the store and they can call me when it comes in. The first month it went to the store they misplaced it. Can you believe that? They apologized for the mess up, I said not a big problem as if they could not have found it, they not me would be on the hook to replace it.

So sorry about the amount of food you can eat. In some ways I am the same way. The one good thing, at least for now, is I can still have a drink at night. They had me on a med before Esbriet where I was not suppose to drink. I scolded my doctor and he said I could have a glass of wine once in a while, but there were no limitations on either the Esbriet or OFEV. Probably is not great for me, but given all of the stuff I can no longer do or enjoy, until told otherwise, I am going to enjoy my drink.

I can only imagine the stuff you and your wife have collected in all of those years. I know we collected a lot of stuff in the 22 years I was at the house we just sold. Did I read one of your earlier postings that you live out in the western part of the country? Has the weather impacted how much you can go outside? I went for a short walk today before it got to hot. And did a little yard work. I hate not doing anything but it seems when I do, I get so tired. I assume you run into the same thing. Otherwise, I can get the drugs at any local drug store for the prescribed time for a real reduced co-pay.

I get angry with them when they deliver a package because they generally just leave it on the front porch. When I got our free sample from Esbriet, it came UPS, but we had to sign for it, so they rang the doorbell. It seems it is always hard to lose weight but easy to gain. I wish you luck in trying to lose an additional 15 lbs.

I got it done but I had to stop, sit down and rest 3 or 4 times during the preparation and then cleaning up my cooking mess. It really stresses me out that I can no longer cook meals. My wife hates to cook so she was happy I had taken over. I wish I could have a good drink occasionally too but with all the meds I am taking for my heart and stomach, etc. Yes, we live in the Western part of the US. We live in Idaho. We do have a lot of fires around the state and from the surrounding states plus Canada. They produce smoke that the wind has dumped into our valley area.

We are now in an extreme raspatory hazard alert warning now and warned to stay inside as much as possible. We have a lawn sprinkler installed and, in the winter, we hire people to shovel the snow off our driveway and walks. We live on a large corner lot, so we have a lot of walk to clear. Also, we have a large two car cement driveway that must be cleared. We have a snow blower and my wife had taken over shoveling the drive and walks for a while until she injured her back and had to give it up.

We are just getting too old for that kind of work. I forgot to address your stomach issues. Really sorry about what that surgeon did to you. But I am really surprised that the lawyer did not pursue a lawsuit. I understand about the stomach getting upset easily. Sometimes for me, just thinking about something is enough to get my stomach going. You will have to tell me how your Quiche ended up.

Not a fan of artichokes but love quiche. At least I used to. I am not sure it has even been approached to me. Once you get the meds approved you will have to go through a specialty pharmacy to order them. Definitely not something that is stocked at the regular pharmacy. I just ordered something that caught my eye that will track all sorts of things, heart rate, blood pressure but in my humble opinion more important oxygen saturation. Reading the description it mentioned that at night time if your level drops the wrist unit that looks like a fitbit thing, will vibrate to wake you up.

Nudging you to take deeper breaths or change your position, which would be a problem for you with the feeding tube. I will have to let you and others here know how it works out as those pesky O2 levels are kind of important to us. I have a friend that lives in Montana. He is a fishing guide. And several friends who live in Wisconsin. I have always heard that Idaho is a beautiful state. With all of the fires out there, I am always worried about the people out there as well as the wildlife.

We are actually getting smoke clouds that is what the weather person said from the fires out there. I used to love mowing the lawn I just do not think I could handle it anymore. Just being in the shade weeding does a number on my breathing. Like you, I really enjoy cooking Thanksgiving dinner. Probably nothing I enjoy more. Nothing like the smell of a roasting turkey. Fortunately I do not have to do clean up duty. Works for me. I make it, they clean it. This was in response to a recent study that indicated taking a combination of the two was more effective at slowing the deterioration of the lungs than either alone.

In contrast with OFEV, I have experienced no diarrhea, normal appetite, recovery of some weight loss, and no stomach problems. The major side effect is high sensitivity to UV rays, which hit me in the second month. I did not apply sun screen as recommended and my arms became red and itchy. I have been treating them with skin moisturizing cream and cortisone cream.

I have not had a lung function test since beginning Esbriet so I do not know whether by itself it is more or less effective than OFEV. This is annoying because it requires remembering to bring the midday pill when away from home during the day. I am hoping that current research and trials of other treatments for IPF will be approved before my condition worsens substantially. I am monitoring this and other websites and have not seen any announcements so far. Thanks so much for sharing your experience with us re: switching your anti-fibrotic medications.

I know someone recently on the forums was hoping for more information this, so I am sure your reply will appeal to them. Any chance you could post the study making reference to the benefit of this? It is a common side effect as well. Thanks again for sharing, I know many people will find your post informative. Kindest regards, Charlene. About the stomach issues. I really did try hard to sue the surgeon and went to a lot of expense on my part to get copies of all my medical records I had from local medical services and even Mayo Clinic in Arizona that I went to two times that tried to correct the botched surgery.

They said they would fight it, but my chances of winning were nil, and I would end up paying for the whole trial. The quiche recipe was quite simple and turned out well. We both tried it this morning with some Salsa. It was good, but I wish I would have used more shrimp and possibly not cooked the shrimp prior to putting it in the mix before cooking.

After the quiche cooking time, minutes, the shrimp was way overcooked and hard. The chopped-up artichoke hearts were well disintegrated and not distinguishable. It was just kind of an egg biscuit cake with some pieces shrimp in it. I much prefer a recipe I have fixed called a Seafood Casserole much better. It has eggs, Gruyere cheese, crab, shrimp, and scallops in it. I sometime put 8oz Spinach in it too, if I have it on hand. You can include mushrooms and other items if you want to. I think it would fall under the day restriction a lot of medications fall under.

That monitor device you were telling me about does sound like a useful item. I think I know what you are referring to. They have several types of them listed on Amazon. My oxygen level seems to be pretty good while I I am just sitting, which I do most of the time. I have no idea where it goes when I am moving or working.

I guess I should check that too. The kind, I think you are talking about are a lot more expensive but show and record more info. My son and daughter have one that they use when they exercise. If he quits breathing, it kicks in and forces him to breath. His wife had complained that he was snoring and was quitting breathing and she worried about it, so he went to the Dr and he ran some night sleeping tests and put him on it.

It was a Sleep Apnea condition. He has since started exercising, running and lost a lot of weight which seems to help him a little. Yes, Idaho is quite beautiful in most locations. It does have some sagebrush covered flat areas, mountains, forests and farmlands. Our city is about 4, ft elevation, surrounded by mountains, so we get all kinds of weather. We are only a couple of hundred miles from the Montana border. I guess you are located someplace in Canada?

Yes, the fires are taking a toll on the wildlife. It has also consumed a lot of the forest lands too. There is a consensus that they are helping in some way though because there is so much deadfall and dead trees standing so that it is making it impossible for them to get to the fires and maybe the fires will clear out some of it.

Where there has been fires here in Idaho, they have cleaned the areas and replanted the trees. Some of the areas where this has been done have regrown sections that are better accessible for logging, camping and other uses. Yes, 60 years of married life has covered a lot of life. It seems like now, just a couple of months or years living together without marriage is the way of life.

This is my second marriage. We had one child. I was drafted into the Army during the Korean War and we dissolved it shortly after I got out. Three years later, I remarried someone else. We have 5 grown children. From the results of the two marriages, I am a great, great, grandfather. Time does fly. I use to enjoy cooking the Thanksgiving dinner because I could fix the stuffings of my choice. I always liked making both the oyster and sausage stuffing because I love both. I think I like eating the stuffing better than the turkey.

Over the years, I usually tried different methods to prevent it. I prefer cooking the turkey with the stuffing it. My wife and guests would usually take care of the table before and after we ate so they would take care of that part. My wife always wants special Holliday decorations and dishes for the occasions. I better close now and get some stuff done.

My daughter called last night and said she and my son will be coming for a visit Monday and are staying for a week. My daughter has a year-old son that has Autism and Down Syndrome and must tend him every day and wants to get away for a while. Her husband will take the week off to tend him while she is away. They have had a real trial over the years with him. So, since our son and daughter live a few miles away from each other they decided on traveling the miles together and come home for the visit. It will be nice to see them again. Interesting Robert. Although I would be surprised if my insurance company would be willing to cough up that amount of money every month and that additional cost would drain my grant money very quickly.

But a moot point as I developed an allergy to the Esbriet. I am super curious about this too Paula, and hoping Robert Bob does well on the combination of both anti-fibrotic medications. He so kindly sent me the link to the Pulmonary Fibrosis News article highlighting how this can benefit patients with PF. Good Morning Ray First i hope that you have a great visit with your daughter and son.

I used to live in Plymouth, MA home of the dumb rock but we just bought a house an hour north which puts us dead center of my son and daughter. Each live 20 minutes away from me in opposite directions. Living in Plymouth was very expensive. We lived on a dirt road actually lived on a very large pond, although given it was acres I think it should have been called a lake so at least once a year when it snowed we could expect to be trapped on our road. With my health issues the last thing we wanted was to have an emergency and be unable to get out. Additionally it was harder for the kids to come down quickly.

Which I am sure your all to well aware of those issues. The monitor I just got you wear on your wrist and it informs you all day long what your levels are. Like you I have one of those things similar to what they use at the doctors but this thing, if I can figure it out will tell me no matter where I am what is going on. Given my numbers have been lousy lately I may not want to know my numbers.

Which was not too bad especially if it does what it is suppose to. It was suppose to take a week to get here but came in 2 days. The box had prime written on it. I am not a member of prime and they better have not charged me prime rates. Thank you for telling me your physical location in the US. Rereading one of your posts, you did mention something about how hot the weather seemed to be here in the US.

I guess I just spaced it. I know Charlene lives in Canada.